My fustration with Capoeira in General...

[Jon]

Hi all...

I've been really contemplating coming back to Capoeira. I really would like to come back and train capoeira angola... but i have soo many things that i don't agree with that hinders me from committing myself to train with any established group. I thought maybe i'd share with you all my frustration and my struggle with capoeira... some of what i will share has everything to do with why i left capoeira... I won't go great into detail only kind of list what I am not in agreement with. at the end i will also share i what i love about capoeira....

Don't Agree With:
1. Cordel System, i just don't need to be ranked or compared with anyone, we are all smart enough with enough common sense to distinguish who is more experienced without cordels

2. Titles, we don't need all these titles with the exception of Mestre if the students so choose to call their teacher their Mestre

3. Uniform\ Color Cloth, i don't agree that we all need to wear white or any other particular color in order to train with any particular capoeira group. White is a tradition carried over from Candomle and Church. I'm an atheist... i will not wear white and represent something i am not, and something i don't believe in, how i present myself is very important to me, im sure it is important to everyone and of coarse all the capoeira mestres who ask you to wear white or their particular school uniform color for whatever reason...

capoeira flurished in the streets of brazil, some people had no shoes, had no clothing, but still trained capoeira and i highly doubt what you wore had any significance to training or playing capoeira, why should it matter now? we don't need this much structure to share an art form with people.

4. Songs about GODs, Saints, or Spirits... once again im Athiest I will never again sing a song that does not mean anything to me, if i don't believe in something, i will not partake in it.... instructors still felt the need to disrespect me by asking me to sing a song about something i did not believe in...

5. Roda, I don't believe anyone should ever be told how to play capoeira in any roda... you should not be asked to tuck in your shirt, tuck in your belt, wear shoes, don't wear shoes, this is all a bunch bullshit... why are we telling other capoeira players how they should present and express themselves in a roda???? if you play and train capoeira with no t-shirt, in a sports bra, no shoes, with shoes, belt or no belt, you should always play and train that way anywhere.... what is the need for all this formality and traditional bullshit... lets just allow people to play capoeira, present and express themselves honestly at all times....



This just about sums up everything i don't agree with... and it applies to all capoeira today regional, contemporay, and angola....

I just want to train, and play capoeira without all the extra bullshit...

What i loveabout capoeira is the exchange between the players in the roda, the dance element, the idea of a martial art disguised in a dance, and the music... I think many people love and persue capoeira because of these same things...

what i don't understand is why can't we just embrace these elements of capoeira, continue to share it, allow others to freely express themselves in this art form, and just take away all the extra nonsense... all the things i just mentioned above that pushes people like me away because i'm not willing to conform to and honor these so called traditions that honestly i feel without it capoeira could still be just as strong possibly or even stronger...

Now i know some of you will bring up a good point regarding the structure of capoeira, that it was necessary so that capoeira could be recognized as sport or martial art by the government. I understand the reason why Mestre Bimba may have asked his students to wear all white, and create some serious structure to make capoeira look good in front of the government, but come on.... we are way past those times... and capoeira is all over the world today because of this mans efforts and others who followed after him...

my understanding of capoeira is this.... it is an art form that was born out the fight for freedom from slavery... if this is capoeira, then why are we enslaving students of capoeira on many levels with all these rules?

[Sean -Sapo-]

This is some interesting stuff you bring up Jon, and I've already posted some of my responses in the other thread.

We cannot learn the way the old mestres did. They didn't learn in classes. They didn't have schools. There was no formal structure. If you wanted to learn capoeira, you would have to seek out a mestre who would be willing to teach you.

I see what you are saying, and the direction you feel capoeira should take. But I disagree. I don't see the removal of these things as freeing capoeira at all. It would make it very difficult for newcomers to learn.

Capoeira, is very difficult to define, and in my opinion, very difficult to learn. To throw a beginner into a capoeira class with the music, the movements, and a whole new philosophy and language can be overwhelming.

The way I see it, the regional/senzala method of learning, the way we learn capoeira now borrows heavily from eastern martial arts. Today's modern angola/regional/contemporary schools are all descendants of this learning method.

We have sequences, we learn in classes, there is structure and discipline. In fact learning capoeira can be almost militaristic and downright constricting. This is because there is so much to learn, and only through intensive focus without distractions can we learn some of these things.

Remember: You must first learn the rules before you can break them. This is the same with learning any art form.

Within these constrictions and set rules you start to define yourself. You discard some things, you keep somethings. Eventually you break from the rules because that no longer apply to you and make new rules.

This is only natural. This is why capoeira is constantly changing and evolving.

You ask why are we enslaving with these rules. I ask you, how do you know you are free, if you have never been enslaved? How do you appreciate your freedoms? Can't you see that saying "I won't have a cord system" is a rule in of itself?

Why only those things?

Why can't we have capoeira songs in english? Why can't we use other instruments? why do we have to play capoeira to music? Why can't we bring back the old capoeira with the straight razor, the knives and clubs?

There are certain "commonalities" that i feel is what can be considered capoeira. Take away too much, and I'm not sure what it is you get.

[Highlander]

1. Cordel System, i just don't need to be ranked or compared with anyone, we are all smart enough with enough common sense to distinguish who is more experienced without cordels

Is it a problem for you to just ignore the cordas? I dont agree with cordas either, but I can appreciate the value that some people attach to them so I am happy enough to just ignore them, while wearing the one I have been given by my group

2. Titles, we don't need all these titles with the exception of Mestre if the students so choose to call their teacher their Mestre

A lot of people would disagree with you on this one I think. It takes a lot of work and commitment to advance, and help others advance, in capoeira and I think it is only right to recognise this when formally addressing someone in a group environment. Again, is it a problem for you to just ignore this if you dont agree with it, in my experience you don't actually have to address people as Professor or Contra-Mestre if you don't want to, just use their first name or apelido

3. Uniform\ Color Cloth, i don't agree that we all need to wear white or any other particular color in order to train with any particular capoeira group. White is a tradition carried over from Candomle and Church. I'm an atheist... i will not wear white and represent something i am not, and something i don't believe in, how i present myself is very important to me, im sure it is important to everyone and of coarse all the capoeira mestres who ask you to wear white or their particular school uniform color for whatever reason...

I am an atheist and I dont have any problem with wearing white. I know that the tradition is derived from Candomble/Church, which was a very important aspect of the people who created and nurtured capoeira so I view it as a mark of respect to those people and their beliefs when I wear the white uniform not as some kind of oppression or insult to my personal belief system.

4. Songs about GODs, Saints, or Spirits... once again im Athiest I will never again sing a song that does not mean anything to me, if i don't believe in something, i will not partake in it.... instructors still felt the need to disrespect me by asking me to sing a song about something i did not believe in...

Again, I see it as a mark of respect to the traditions and beliefs of the people who created capoeira so I have no problems with singing the songs and wouldn't like to have it any other way. Would you refuse to sing a song about the magical powers of Besouro because it is folklore and not an accurate portrayal of historical fact?

5. Roda, I don't believe anyone should ever be told how to play capoeira in any roda...

The traditions of a group (no shoes, tuck in shirt etc..) are usually defined based on the personal beliefs of the mestre(s) of that particular group, as these men/women are responsible for leading the group in vision and advancement, I think it shows respect to follow the traditions that they want to establish. If any particular tradition is something that you cannot honour for whatever personal reason or belief than you can leave to join a new group.

I honestly dont see how any of these things would be cause for you to consider not training capoeira ever again.

I guess you could try establishing a secular group that refuses to sing the majority of old songs that have any religious overtones, allows people to wear whatever they want and has no grading system or means of recognising peoples advancement in the art. I don't think you would find many supporters though.

[Jon]

Well, I want to say thank you to anyone who have took the time to read this post, and respond. I know that most to all of you would disagree with me, as this capoespaco.com a website created for capoeira lovers world wide. Those who do agree and understand my perspective are probably not apart of the capoeira community anymore either.

I will always have a place in my heart for capoeira, and will always respect all of you who continue to train and share this beautiful art form, but honestly I don't think it was ever meant to be for me.

I'm a free spirit, i will not live my life under any form of oppressiveness outside of the system we are all already apart of.

[John Hartman]

yeah bro no what you mean about the rankings uniform etc. I love capoeira but we dont have them thankfully but i rackon if you love something ignore the things you hate about it and just rock it!!!!!

[New York Monkey]

You have to know the rules to be able to consciously break them. Rules are an imprisonment you are breaking free from.
Part of seeking freedom involves being a rule breaker.

If capoeira is an exercise/activity that helps free you then knowing the rules is a prerequisite to achieving freedom

Know them, but why follow them?

If not enough of the rules of an imprisonment system are followed, then the culture / atmosphere that these rules create will cease to exist.

Goodbye foil to your fight for freedom. Goodbye floor to your jumping. What presence does your movements and words now take when you cannot open the prizon cell gate, because the gate does not exist?

Beginners pitfall is to think that achieving freedom is static; a thing. No it is a process. it is walking thought the prison gates. To walk through gates you need gates.

What if you don't like rules? Well then capoeira might not be for you,

Can you look at rules as something to know and watch, particularly the ones that are bothersome and "I dont like"ish; looking to see why and looking to see inside for the answer, to live regardless, even to prosper, as if something so artificial as a rule could ever rule me.

[Mussum]

Well, here is my input.
Cordel System: I have mixed feelings on this subject. I think it is great because it gives students a sense of achievement and it works wonders for the self-esteem. At the same time, I dislike it because it adds to "capoeira politics". For example, if a capoeirista with a lower cord wants to go into the roda, and there is a higher cord that wants to play too, the lower cord has to allow the higher cord to go first. That irks the hell out of me. Then on top of that if you go just before them, they don't even wait to allow the game to happen. They jump in and cut you out in less than 3 seconds, 5 at most. This brings about much disrespect.

Titles: Don't care. A title is just a name. It just adds to certain people's big egos.

Uniform/Color cloth: You have to respect the rules of the house. If your visiting a group and you are asked to wear white, wear it or don't go. If you are part of a group, the uniform comes with the group. I prefer to wear blue/black personally.

Songs: Understand where you are coming from. But add the same time, when you are in a roda, you want to make sure you give as much Axe as possible. That's why when I sang, I try to give as much energy as I can.

Roda: If everyone has on no shoes and this one person comes in to the roda with the same shoes he/she when waliking around in, then yes, there should be no shoes. When you actually cut your foot on a rock, pebble, or a piece of glass that someone brought into the roda with them, then you will see why. I tell you this from experience. The belt or no belt, I don't want to see your ass flashing me in the middle of a roda. I don't even like to see people sagging. It is disrespectful especially in front of elders. If a person asked you to tuck in your shirt, remember, you are a guy and abadas are not that thick. That usually means they can see your package. Especially when you start to sweat. So be grateful on that note and run with it. LOL.

Well, you have my take on the subject. Eventually I'm going to just go solo and travel to workshops, train, and not associate myself with a specific group. I personally dislike capoeira politics. So, on that note, hopefully we will meet and play capoeira one day. Axe.

[Rastinha]

Dude, I don't think capoeira is for you. The whole point of capoeira is about having fun, taking things lightly (vadiagem) and respecting each other and yourself. That means the people you're playing, the Mestres who teach you and others, and the traditions that have been passed on, whatever their history. People wear white for many reasons, not just from Candomble or church. Old Mestres wore white also because it was a good show of who was sharpest in the roda to come home with the cleanest whites. And the formalities of tucking yourself in and wearing shoes etc. come from a place of having pride in one's self because capoeira was originally associated with black, street people in a negative way. Dressing finely is a way of acknowledging how far capoeira has come and recognising the work of the ancestors of the art in getting it that way. If capoeira means something to you, then you should appreciate that work because without it, you would never have discovered capoeira. Which means that theoretically that tradition should mean something to you and there's no reason to not follow it.

The other point about respect in terms of dress code is that nobody wants to see a fat hairy ass sticking out of your pants or a chubby hairy belly sticking out and jiggling everytime you go upside down. So, out of respect for others one should cover up. In fact, I don't wanna see any good bodies either because I want to watch a good game of capoeira and not cringe when I see undies. And out of respect for one's self, even if you think your body is hot stuff, you should tuck in because you don't want people to just see a piece of meat in front of them when they could be acknowledging your game of capoeira.

It seems silly to say you'll never sing along to a song that doesn't mean something to you ever again, that would cut out every song in existence apart from those you have exclusively written yourself. So I guess you've never sung along to a song on the radio about how somebody got their heart broken by some person they now hate, because you don't know that about that person, they didn't hurt you, so how can you possibly believe it? Can't sing along to 'Eu pisei na folha seca, ouvi fazer chue chua' because the idea that leaves make the sound 'chue chua' was thought up by somebody else, and is not your own belief. Have you never read a fictional book outloud and said words that you don't necessarily believe in? Praying or believing has to have intent behind it, otherwise you are just saying words. I am 120% atheist, but I will sing any capoeira song because they are just WORDS, they're not forcing me to believe in god and I have no reason to take it personally. I'll sing them as readily as I'll sing something like 'Alice the camel has 10 humps' which clearly I don't believe either. Or 'Mary had a little lamb', there's no proof it followed her to school. Or 'Happy birthday' even, I don't know you've had a happy birthday, I may not even want you to have one, but I'm not bound to any belief just because I sing a song.

And the easiest part to respond to about that all is that Capoeira Angola doesn't even have cordoes. The only guaranteed titles are Student and Mestre, with the possible inclusions of Treinel and Contra-Mestre depending on group. They're only there to recognise the work of a student. They also help to make sure arrogant students who think they know everything respect the senior students who are teaching them as much as they'd respect the Mestre of the group when they're in their class.

You shouldn't take anything personally in capoeira because none of capoeira is meant for you personally. It is an oral tradition, passed down through the generations, that belongs to all the ancestors, the slaves who helped create it, the Masters who have been teaching, all the way up to every student who practices it today. You're welcome to disagree with whatever you want, but capoeira will always be capoeira whether you're a part of it or not.

[Cachaça]

Hii!
I just come across with this discussion…
I must say that I agree with everything u guys say… I see capoeira as a conversation between 2 people, is fluid, can be fun, can be interesting, and u get to know the person. If u are playing with your partners, your friends of your group, can be fun, you know them, and if you get to play with other groups, can be interesting what other people can came up in this conversation, I must say, I really like this aspect of capoeira. It have other good aspects like remain the traditions of people with a very rich culture, like the white uniforms, the Portuguese songs with religious themes… is honoring the fight of this people. But I don’t think that obligates you to be religious.
But then is sad when it becomes all about cords, titles, egos… I guess I understand John´s disappointment with capoeira… I’m having it too. But I’m not sure that I want to quit doing capoeira for good, I believe that some people of my group will grow out of it… I can only hope. If they don’t.. doesn’t matter really, there still some people that can have great conversations and have fun with.
Jon, you can still doing capoeira, use your own words, even though some structure becomes handy sometimes, but don’t repair on those things, just enjoy it.

[Jon]

Hi Cachaca,
Thank you for your response, and thank everyone else who has responded. I appreciate all the feedback, and I will be honest and say I did learn a thing or two from this ongoing discussion, but that hasn't changed my mind about capoeira overall. When I began training capoeira and continued for 3 years I didn't really have any expectations other than to be involved in something that allowed me to express myself freely...

i have been able to deal with all the rules, traditions etc. for 3 whole years... and created this website out my love for capoeira at the time so i think that does count for something... but after time has past I found that I really didn't feel so free to express myself in the way I wanted, I felt and still feel that all the rules and traditions in capoeira really turned me off after a while and simply lead me to feel very oppressed physically in movement, in mind, and spirit.

I still and will always have love and respect for all of you who train capoeira and continue to. I will say that im happy that you all can deal the rules, traditions etc. and keep capoeira alive... because it is a beautiful art form... but it is no longer for me... i've spent the last year focusing on music and dance since i left capoeira and admin of capoespaco.

here is a clip of me dancing for a show in Newark... http://capoespaco.ning.com/video/capoeira-house-dancin

like i said thank you all for your feedback, much love and respect to all... by all means anyone else who comes across this discussion please continue to post your opinions of my initial post, i will still come back an read it.

[Bruno]

Hea mano, I finally found the time to post a reply.
I can feel you very good, since I myself know of what you are speaking of very good and have been longer in the scene, and actually am back again...

Cordel System

I disagree with that crap also. Some here may say t is needed, some may say they agree with you and me.
I will just put it like this; Each of us makes different experiences, due to different group/country etc.
even the own personality and how you perceive things counts here. I can share my experiences, so those who don't understand why someone should be against it.

First point, it is all about money!
The cordel system became an exploration of those who get into capoeira to learn it. Long ago groups had 7 and less cordas/cordeis/cintos whatever you want to call them, or how your group does. Today groups have not 7 but 21, 24, maybe 30, who knows? Aslong the people will pay there is always a chance to improve, so maybe in 10 years we will see groups with 100 cordas. I know this is maybe exagerated but I want to make it clear. The system has nomore to do with the recognition for your time and efforts, it is simple a way to make money for the person who stands infron of the class, a very easy way who happend thanks to the european/us, since yes we can afford those things.
I myself was in capoeira and went through 3 changes of corda systems in regional. Started when group had 7 and today it has 24 cordas....

It creates conflicts and is Anti-social!
How many times was I asked during active time when I was in different countries and events about wich rank my corda is in my group? Depending on my answer, the people lost the interest in speaking to me or getting to know me, cause it is no cool instructor or higher corda...

It is given out by simpathy and other services...
I made the experience and have seen with my own eyes people get monitor corda after 3 months... I could say it was a girl, so it is self-explanatory how she got it, or do i need to mention the mestre liked her?
I seen guys jump 2,3 4 cordas due to some special relationship or services... yes most are woman, but yeah...


Titles

I call those who impressed me with social skills Mesrte, not those who are called mestre cause they are great in roda or do crazy flips. The person who will treat me with respect wil earn respect. Not many out there I call Mestre. What I always will laugh about is about those guys who go around in events and are like, Mestre, you are a God, Mestre this, Mestre that, Mestre.... heh, people tend to forget they are also someone when Mestres around. Look at it like this guys, if one day I will be forced to disrespect a mestre, I will simply ask one question: What besides Capoeira do you can? I mean we are all Mestres at something, we just forget about what we can to look up to others, that's it.

Uniform\ Color Cloth

For longtime I agreed partially on uniforms. Now being angoleiro and in a group who just asks one thing. Wear the shirt of the group if possible. I see the commercialization of capoeira here again. The thirst for money.... It happend again thanks to us european/us, cause we are the ones who buy all those things. CLothes, clothes, more clothes and yeah it ends with seeing underwear even with the logos.... wonder how far it will go... maybe durex will give a line out for the capoeirista in Brasil, who knows.... This the first to the uniforms.

About the colors, actually everyone should find himself and his/her style. And not become a clone or a tool of a finances plan of someone...

For me capoeira is a road to myself, to my inner self, so don't tell me what I have to wear on my road... I have no problem with the shirt of the group, since it is the place I am living and learning, learning the art and myself.... so let me be myself, ok?

I od have to let out something who botters me about the WHITE Pants, Abadas, whatever you prefer to call them, I for myself call them pants, Abada is a group. Whoever agreed on those because they wanted to make out capoeira a sport for the white, working like the martial arts from the east let through one thing. In martial arts from the east they don't wear exposing pants. I say exposing cause I never seen any martial artist from asia with see through pants. So whoever came up with it is a big pervert or just showed how brasilian man are... they think about one thing (not all but tell me how many you know who don't?). As for the womans in capoeira, I just have to laugh. In europa, us and other places you fought so hard in history to get rights and a better position. Now because some guys with the latino charm arrive out nowhere do one, towo flips and eat alot bomba in brasil so they have bigger muscles then popeye and you forget about your rights, about the fight over history? Or you feel really comfortable exposing yourself in the pants who are transparent after 5 minutes of training? I seen things, I seen even Mestres with pictures of all those roles in theyr cell, like a sticker collection.... so for those who still think white is so great, try to see it as woman.... Cause yes, as man I should say, wow, I want to go train at this place, you get to do some fitness, meet ladies and allready see everything before you know theyr name.... down with the white pants, respect woman, respect everyone. Children should not grow up in a such perverted environment, I am sorry to say it like that. One of the biggest reasons I left regional for angola is here. I was tired of seeing G-strings and less then those.... and those less then G, get very fast a corda....

Songs about GODs, Saints, or Spirits...

Hehe, I feel you bro. I have less problems with singing tho a song about gods then sining as example: Sem capoeira eu não posso viver. Without capoeira I can't live. It applies to someone maybe in brazil woh teaches it to earn his life and to those outside who only work with capoeira and no job besides it but sorry, don't ask of me to put my feelings into singing lies. I can live without capoeira as everyone else in europe and us and other corners of the world, cause we all have a job and a life besides capoeira.

Roda

Mano, loo I learned this for myself. Be who you ae wherever you are. It means also ina roda. If someone got a problem with that then it's not my problem. If in a roda I am asked things I don't want to, I simply leave or just don't participate. If I am criticized, then I ask to teach me how to do it, or to show me a way towards improvement, I mean there is always an open space for improvement, isn't it?


To everyone who comes here and reads this topic, please read it carefully and don't judge me, Jon or those who not happy with things who sadly happen under the name of capoeira. I know those things who happen and the things we criticize are and have nothing to do with Capoeira, so I am still in it. It is the people who do that, and yes it is those who call themselves professionals who do that. I don't say everyone does it, I met myself great people I can say I admire for the person they are, but I won't close my eyes and go around like many do saying it is great and all is perfect and everyone who is not happy don't understands it or like I seen, say to someone "capoeira is not for you". Whoever says that shold think about those words and maybe judge them before go and judge the experiences others made....


Capoeira was born out an idea, out a critic towards the treatment the slaves got. So capoeira can be happy for all those lovers of the art who are still able to criticize. Critic is an input for improvement towards the better, so don't judge us because we made bad experiences. Be happy you are maybe in a place where that don't happens.

[Pavio]

Yeah I feel you these issues.

1. Cordel System: I don't really agree with this at all. I like cordels because they look cool, but I have seen lots of cases where people have ranked up just because they sponsored the group. Even capoeira is corrupt in some aspects.

2. Titles: I feel like as soon as you become a proficient teacher to another individual, you have the right to be called a teacher of some sort. However, coming out of strict traditional Japanese martial arts styles, I feel as if the term Mestre should be saved for the big names in capoeira (those who actually spread the game significantly, not necessarily just by showing off in front of others).

3. Uniform Color Cloth: I say, wear what you want to. I hate uniforms. I was forced to buy one at my first batizado, and I was given the wrong size at a very expensive price (therefore securing my next uniform purchase). Not only that, but I hate how I bought some really cool red and white capoeira pants and I'm not allowed to freakin' wear them to class. It makes me wonder why I bother spending my money. Maybe capoeira should be played naked (sarcasm).

4. Religious Songs: I've had issues with religion for a while, but I think that it's not a huge deal to sing the songs. It's a part of the tradition, and by singing these songs, you aren't pledging yourself to a doctrine...you're just singing a song. It's like singing a rap song that talks about killing people. You are no murderer, but you sing the song because it sounds nice. Get it? However, that doesn't justify group members forcing you to sing, necessarily. It's a situational thing, I suppose.

5. Roda Etiquette: I don't think that people should be told how to play in the roda either, but I do believe there are limits. For example, I once played a woman that had a huge metal cast on her foot. During the jogo, she stepped on my foot, causing all the bones in my foot to severely bruise. In addition, it's not safe for someone to play capoeira that is on the warpath if the other person is a beginner or is not proficient in the techniques.


Thank you Jon, I hope you can gain something from this.

Axe
Pavio

[Dois Vinte]

dude as you brother i respect your beliefs and completely understand were your coming from, but i think capoeira is for you jus as dance is for you i see u as a free spirited angola player everytime you enter the roda and you give off crazy ass axe in the roda enough said on my part but you do what feels right bro "F " all the bullshit if you see yourself wanting to train then train if not then so be it cant really fight the urge to wanna train though least i cant at times its an addiction ttyl bro